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I originally wrote up the following as a reply to another post that was mis-catagorized. After typing it all up I figured I'd post it here for anyone flying a pass to Europe out of Atlanta. The content mainly deals with why do Avoid Paris CDG on DL and AF. Please let me know if you have any questions!
I am a non-rev with Delta. I live in Switzerland and have been forced to figure out most of the "tricks" for getting to/from Europe from Atlanta and the east coast.
RULE 1: Obey rules 7 and higher expicitly!
RULE 2: DON'T FLY INTO CDG!!
Reason: Most non-revs think that bce CDG is the Delta/AF hub and that there are 4 flights from ATL and another dozen from other east coast cities, that they have a good chance. Most of the time it doesn't go so easy.
First, both DL and AF book the st*t out of those flights very reliably. Second, the NRSA list is crazy. And if you do get on, BusinessElite is almost never an option. One bad idea is for DL non-revs trying for the AF flights and vice versa. This is because out of ATL, preference is given to the airline employees of the operating airline first. I think this is fair. So if you are a DL nrsa trying for the AF flight, an S1R or S2, probably will do NOTHING for you. An even worst wrap is any S4 buddy passes. They are the bottom of both operations.
Another note...Air France does not allow ANY non-revs from either airline to ride in Business Class. I have heard rumors that from ATL-CDG non-revs on the 2 AF flights using S1R or S2 sometimes get seated up front bce of DL staff working the flight. But this is just a rumor, and is rare. The sad thing is that because AF has enforced this so staunchly, DL now will not allow AF employees to board BusinessElite.
The last reason to stay away from the last 2 flights is that DL generally does NOT hold international departures for mis-connects. Even if a weather system is producing a large number of misconnects, they do all they can to get the flights out on time. This is important bce of the incredibly short turn arounds in Europe. If they run late out of ATL, it impacts the next several days of flights and becomes a domino effect that is hard to correct. Because of this, all the afternoon misconnects get routed on the last 2 ATL-CDG flights bce they leave so late and pax can connect on the AF route system to their final destination. It is not rare for DL 8251 (operated by AF) which leaves at 935p to have 60 seats open the morning of departure, and go out without clearing any non-revs.
RULE 3: Have optimism on the earlier non-stop flights to other cities.
Because of what I mentioned above (the fact that DL does not hold flights for misconnects), other European flights that leave late afternoon generally are not as badly oversold as Deltamatic shows. I imagine everyone knows this, but I'll say it anyway...Look at the "Authorized Seat Inventory." This number is a tale tale sign of typical no-show rate. DL has invested in very fancy and complex forcasting software to handle the issue of overbooking that the airline was so bad at in the late 90s. While the AU inventory is not so reliable on the domestic market, it is quite a good indicator on the international side. For example...if "Actual Avail" in Coach is -11 and "Authorized Avail (AU)" is still +39, then the flight is not so bad. This indicates that the airline is expecting at least 50 no-shows or misconnects.
RULE 4: Don't be fooled by day of departure BusinessElite inventory.
In some markets, in certain times of the year, coach will oversell, but J class will be wide open. See example below. You will be able to see the actual inventory the last few days of sell. Here's the catch...If J class is open and Y class is overbooked, on the morning of departure or day before, DL Inventory Control will block out J class inventory in case of an oversell checkin. If you pull a basic schedule list inventory (F9 A9 Y9 B9....) in Deltamatic or call the voice response Traveline, it will indicate -0- seats for Actual and Authorized Availability. DON'T sweat it! If you have access to DeltaNET or DeltaMatic, pull up the actual flight inventory, and you will still see that all those wonderful, expensive BusinessElite seats are still open. And most of the time, most of the non-revs get them with very little overflow into coach!
Example: DL116 Atlanta to Stuttgart on a Friday
Traveline VRU Inventory on Monday:
J = Actual +29 // Authorised +32
Y = Actual -19 // Authorised +11
Traveline VRU Inventory on Friday AM early:
J = Actual 0 // Authorised 0
Y = Actual -29 // Authorised 0
The truth in Deltamatic for J is: Actual = 29 and Authorised is 0.
They do this to ensure they get everone on, and to keep nonrevs from flocking to the flight the last 1 hr of checkin. Like I said, a bunch of the brave non-revs who stuck it out get rewarded with BusinessElite. I cannot tell you how often this has been the case with a crazy oversell in coach and I have gotten on Business using only a S3 with like 15 S1R and S2 above me! What a waste of a S1R when S3's still get business. (Granted, my DOE is 1968 which does change the equation I guess).
RULE 5: Know where our light loads are!...
And where the good conx cities are in Europe. Here's a hint...with the SkyTeam alliance (ID96) of AF, Alitalia, and Czech, you are pretty much covered wherever you end up.
As for the best bets to try for historically...that's a hard secret to give up. Who knows how many of you are reading this?! I could be stabbing myself for giving this opinion! Oh well...I'm a nice guy. I'll give you my top 3 cities that I think historically give us non-revs the best chance. Granted, these flights sometimes leave us stranded too, its part of the game we play. I think Brussels, Zurich, and Stuttgart are on the top of the list. (Not neccesarily in that order though!)
RULE 6: Be flexible, if possible, and aim for TUES and WED evening flights.
They have the least revenue bookings and the least non-revs. Especially 9 months out of the year! (Guess which three aren't good ever...hint they are HOT.) Flexibility the last few days can generally increase your odds for Business Class.
RULE 7, 8, 9, & 10 - 100: HAVE BACKUP ID90/95's
I can't even begin to express to you how important this is. You can only get ID90/95/96 Passes at Delta mainline cities in Europe that operate Delta aircraft. If you end up traveling around and flying out of a city that has no Delta service but has a SkyTeam carrier, you MUST already have the ID9x passes. Neither SkyTeam carriers or GSA offices have the ability to issue needed tickets. You will be up a creek. Paper carbon tickets will NOT work like they used to with Air France/Sabena/Swiss/Austrian. Remember, the ones you don't use are 100% refundable.
One more note: I recommend waiting to buy your passes when you are in Europe. Europe based DL staff are much more familiar with ID90 pass tkt procedures than are US staff. They can both competently do it, however US staff generally have to research the tkt designators, procedures and all while a line of 50 revenue pax queue up behind you.
In conclusion...
I will say this (knock on wood) in over 50 segments across the atlantic both directions, I have NEVER flown coach. I'm not bragging...I will gladly accept seat 55E when my day comes...I'm sure it will. I have been left standing on several occasions. Do your homework and use the network SkyTeam has built in Europe.
One last thing that I have not mentioned here is that it will be interesting to see how helpful the new NW/CO alliance will be for non-revs. Effective July 1, 2003, DL/NW/CO pass riders are eligible for ID95 passes system wide. Unlike SkyTeam alliance, you can even fly business class on NW/CO as long as the ID95 is issued on a C or J class fare code! COOL BEANS!
See...why do DL non-revs need Air France and CDG?!!
**Post edit on 5SEP03**
I originally wrote in this post:
"And as of late spring 2003, DL and LX (Swiss Airlines) also have ID95 agreement which also allows Business class if issued on C/J fare. "
This may not be the cold hard rule with Swiss anymore. This summer, I have discovered that this rule varies widely depending on who you talk to, or who the gate agent is. Some DL staff in Europe will issue C class ID95, some won't. Some LX staff will honor the C class tickets and some won't. I called the LX staff travel office the other day and found out that technically, ID95 are only able to be issued in Y class for travel in Y class. Problem is, I have had opposite experience most of the time.
Bottom line...try it if you can, but don't count on it! If you are a Delta employee, understand that our pass culture is a bit different from other airlines when it comes to Premium cabin standby. Most other carriers do not allow this, and those that do generally charge their staff an upcharge per segment.
'Off the record,' the LX staff office told me that agents in GVA and ZRH have been known to allow DL staff C class boarding due to the fact that DL allows it for LX staff. Its a way of 'returning the favor'. But it is not official policy.
I just wanted to update you and not give incorrect information!
Happy flying!
[This message was edited by Fly without reservation on September 05, 2003 at 07:12 AM.]
[This message was edited by Fly without reservation on September 12, 2003 at 02:41 PM.]
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Thank you for your very helpful post re: ATL to CDG. We are traveling to FCO to pick up a cruise at the end of July and the cruise terminates in Cannes. I'm looking into europebyair flight passes from Nice to Brussels to avoid the CDG hassle. We still need to better our chances of getting back within a two day window. My question is (and this might be duh, but haven't bought ID 90's before); what is the advantage of buying ID 90's/95/96 as a 'backup' if they're still stand by? We're traveling on S-2's or S-3's depending on the loads.
Thanks so much.
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WOW! I did a Mediteranean cruise in the Greek Isles in February in and out of Athens. Gorgeous! I also spent a week in Valencia, Spain on the Med last month. You will have such a blast!
Regarding the ID9x passes...
Although, I made CDG look so bad, be sure to check the flights anyway. I have flown through CDG on a few occasions when the flight was wide open. If all the flights look good, give it a stab.
I'm not sure what your plans are for getting to FCO, but generally FCO is a really hard city to non-rev in the summer. I went last month and it was 42 overbooked in coach a week out! I flew into ZRH (Zurich) and caught an Alitalia flight onto FCO. The advantage you have going to Rome is that you can check all the DL flights over to Europe and pick the most open one. Since Rome is Alitalia's hub, you can go non-stop from almost all DL European cities to Rome.
As far as your question on ID9x, they are standby, but they allow you fly on other carriers to get to another city to connect with a DL flight across the Atlantic. They are generally much cheaper than a positive space revenue tkt. As long as you are in a DL served city, then don't buy the ticket until you need it at the DL counter. Just keep in mind that the Europe DL airport tkt counters are generally only open from like 9am - noon.
Until recently we as DL non-revs could fly on SkyTeam codeshare flights with free paper passes as long as the flight had a codeshare DL flight number also. We can no longer do this. You must pay the ID95/96 on Skyteam carriers if they operate the flight regardless if the flight has a DL flight no. Keep in mind also that European carriers do not overbook flights as bad as US carriers. Non-reving (generally...this is a blanket statement) is easier within Europe.
One last note...on your return trip, keep in mind that we have a nonstop DL flight from Nice (NCE) to New York (JFK). Check that first. Also...NICE rocks too!!
Let me know if you need any further assistance or clarification on this. Please post a trip report when you get back!!
Ps.
Consider heavily the loads before using an S2 on the trans-atlantic flight. When travelling internationally, you automatically use an S3 international day. If you upgrade to S2, you use an S2 domestic day on top of the S3-TO (Trans-Oceanic) day.
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You rock! Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate the alternatives. I was starting to get nervous about non reving to make the cruise start but am leaving 2 1/2 days before it starts. I've made it to CDG on an S-1R before and back from FCO with an S-2 (last remaining seat!), but my husband has to make it back so we need to really plan ahead. We don't have S-1's anymore. He can jumpseat also so he has that to fall back on (furloughed pilot, now a dispatcher). FCO doesn't look too bad now, but it's great to have a back up. I also looked into airbyeurope to come back through BRU and it's reasonable. I've tried to return from Nice before and it was horrendous but it's great to have options.
I'll definitely let you know about the cruise. (First cruise ever).
LSS
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Hello Fly Without Reservation!
In October, my daughter and I are going to Madrid, seville and Toledo. I will be flying on my son's Comair pass (Delta) and my daughter will have one of his Friends and Family passes. Do you have some tips for us? The flights to Madrid are direct from either NYC or Atlanta. Which do you think will be best? Any help you can give would be much apprecaited.
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Just in response to Fly Without Reservation's post......having flown extensively across the pond (32 years service with DL) I try to avoid ATL and JFk as much as possible.....if there is a choice between those cities and CVG, I always pick CVG.....Unfortunately, since I like going to Ireland, ATL is my only choice......
Did you ever wonder why there isn't a second (seasonal) flight ATL-SNN/DUB?? The loads have always been historically heavy in the summer months and I think it would support a second flight
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John,
I agree with you that ATL is tough sometimes, especially with the non-rev loads, but my experience is that CVG flights are generally booked out much more than ATL and JFK. Of course for me being from ATL, the idea of getting stuck in CVG with heavy loads going out holds me back too.
It also seems we have pulled a number of CVG flights to Europe in recent times. The other thing I have noticed is that the non-rev loads out of JFK are much lower than in ATL. How do you find the CVG nrsa loads?
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Ps...
In regard to the DL128/129 circle flights....I totally agree that DL could use more seasonal service there. Late last year they did change out the eqp from the B767-300ER to the B777. But we still book it. I have family in Belfast and would love to see more service. Someone told me a few years ago that Ireland is still very regulated on air service. If this is true, it may explain it. I do know for fact that the only reason DL and the other US carriers serve SNN (Shannon) is because they are required to by the Ireland government in order to get slots at Dublin. Politics....
What I have enjoyed is our ID96 agreement with FlyBE. You can now fly into LGW and then take any of FlyBE's non-stops to Belfast. And because both are in the UK, you don't have to pay the outlandish UK departure taxes on the ID96. Last year I did the ATL-LGW-BHD and came back DUB-ATL and saved $65 USD in taxes! I guess it only works if you want to see the north land though. Btw...if anyone ever goes to the north...see Giants' Causeway near Ballycastle. Its a natural wonder worth seeing!
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In response to the posts at the start here:
I believe you meant "CVG" not "CDG", CVG (Cincinnati's airport is in Covington Kentucky).
Or, Cincitucky.
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Jocamo,
If you are referring to my original post, then I actually AM referring to CDG or Paris-Charles De Gaulle. My point was to avoid the Paris flights.
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Just an FYI for all Delta Buddy Passes and subload pax. The following was recently issued. NOTE: I believe this also applies to OAL (other airline emp/subload pax) because they fly on the same priority with even lower seniority than the affected Buddy Passes. Please check out.
FROM DL PASS BUREAU...
The embargo on Family & Friends (Buddy Pass) travel involving Paris-Charles de Gaulle airport (CDG) has begun and runs through Aug. 31. The action is a result of the partial roof collapse in Terminal 2E at CDG in May. Delta has prohibited Buddy Pass travel without exception to, from and through the French capital, including travel to and from CDG on Air France and all SkyTeam partners. The action does not apply to nonrevenue travel by employees, their dependents, parents or travel companions. Those already booked to CDG during this period will be able to change their destination to other European cities, and Delta will waive the change fee. Any applicable difference in the yield fare will be charged. They may also request a refund of their yield fare tickets if they wish. Currently, but subject to change, Buddy Pass travel to and from CDG will resume Sept. 1. Though employee nonrevenue travel to CDG is permitted during the Buddy Pass embargo, employees are encouraged to make alternate travel plans if possible.
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Hi, I'm new and have found your postings VERY helpful. I've just done my first transatlantic NR, with a pretty horrible return from CDG (see my posting a few days ago). I consider it, as well as all the info from you and other NR forumers, as a learning experience. Now my wife and I want to go back, but in summer, so we are weighing options; the potential pain of NR becomes more bearable as the confirmed prices skyrocket as they do in summer.
Like everyone else, I'd like to know the secret to finding out loads, but I see it is a dicey proposition. Here are my 2 cents worth: Air France has an automated number (in France,in French) where they claim to predict likelihood of AF non-rev seats, though it looks like it too must be taken with a grain of salt. It's 33 820 847 847.
My qustion: does anyone know similar numbers for other European carriers?
LH? Swiss? AZ? IB?
Thanks.
