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I've heard conflicting opinions on this and I REALLY want to hear from where it matters - the employees.
Do you think we need representation, or not?
Note that I just want to get thoughts from all sides, both union and non, and I'm really interested in finding out why or why not without the 'scare tactics' from either side....
http://www.nonrev.net/forums/style_e...IR#>/smile.gif
Just in my own experience with DL, I don't think it's necessary, BUT, perhaps the active DL employees can give you a clearer picture.
Thinking about when I worked as a QSA NW, I'd have to say no. Even on a union job, I still only made $7.07/hour (can't remember if that was before or after any union dues). Because of union regulations, we were not allowed to TOUCH the check-in machines, we could only direct people towards the CSAs to check in, or TELL people what to do on the self-service machines (which at that point, why not just push the damn button).
To me, all the union was good for was to send out mailings that I wouldn't care about. Otherwise, it was something that held me back from doing the core duty of my job: help passengers. It's not so much that I trust Delta without a union, I just don't see the point of the union in my experiences with Northwest.
However, given that I am not even an employee of NW, much less DL, I'm going to abstain from voting.
I've been a union member of NW and AS, and non-unionized with Independence Air. It depends how you feel about your company culture. Do you have trust that internal decisions will be done in the best interest of as many people as possible? IMO, if Delta agents are getting along just fine without unionizing, why start now? I can't imagine what dynamic changes would suddenly cause the need to be unionized. Life will go on with or without it.
Honestly? I dislike the atmosphere as of late - a subtle 'something' that has permeated things for the last few months - I've heard some serious horror stories and have had some pretty unpleasant experiences myself once it was known that I was not "Original Delta" (but this doesn't ALWAYS happen - on my actual flight to and from EZE the crew were absolutely wonderful and welcoming) - Sea-Tac has become a really unpleasant place to fly out of, no matter which airline you're traveling on. http://www.nonrev.net/forums/style_e..._DIR#>/sad.gif
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumper @ Sep 25 2009, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>I suppose that if you're working res, you may have more of an incentive to go with a union due to job security. Obviously, with online reservations taking over, it's harder to justify keeping a full phone staff from 15 years ago. My next-door neighbors from back home (good family friends) worked in res. The wife is still there, the other was able to get an early retirement package. They've told stories about entire sections right next to them getting the boot. Then again, those jobs are unionized, too. I'm really not sure if this is a case of a weak union, or if things would be much worse otherwise.Quote:
Honestly? I dislike the atmosphere as of late - a subtle 'something' that has permeated things for the last few months - I've heard some serious horror stories and have had some pretty unpleasant experiences myself once it was known that I was not "Original Delta" (but this doesn't ALWAYS happen - on my actual flight to and from EZE the crew were absolutely wonderful and welcoming) - Sea-Tac has become a really unpleasant place to fly out of, no matter which airline you're traveling on. http://www.nonrev.net/forums/style_e..._DIR#>/sad.gif[/b]
You want collective bargaining to do negotiations for you. Let me ask you this. Do you think that without a union negotiating for you the company is going to give you something out of the goodness of their hearts? Most white collar employees are look down upon unions because they view collective bargaining for the blue collars or for low class labor. They feel that they can gain more by negotiating terms on their own. Plus white collar employees have more access to office enviroments where they see their bosses more, and feel they can gain something out of their own hard efforts. Blue collar employees are more on the front lines, away from offices and the people that give them raises, so they fare better with collective bargaining to do their negotiations for them. But alot of blue collar jobs have gone overseas and white collar workers have been growing way more rapidly than blue collar workers, but they seem to refuse to join unions. Only 5 percent. Go figure. It's a fact that most union jobs PAY MORE MONEY, up to 2 times more than non union jobs. They're not perfect, but look at this. MOST GOVERNMENT JOBS ARE UNIONIZED IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR. Post office, IRS, you name it..... I think you're missing the boat if you don't join a union at an airlines with so many employees involved. And expect friction once the company knows youre going union. They'll do whatever they can to persuade you not to do it. This is ongoing since the birth of America. Unions and anti-unions.
It's tough, I think. I'll ask to not be flamed for my comments, this is just how I feel.
I think Delta for the last 80 years has been just fine without a union. I also think that NW would not be fine without a union. I think DL never needed a union, and NW has. Again, don't flame me, but I just feel as though NW is taking over DL from the inside out. I think one has to completely forget about this merger and ask if NW needs a union or not, because that's the way the merged company will negotiate.
At the same time I have alot of issues with the abuse of unions. I think in theory they are fantastic and have done alot to improve life for all modern workers in all fields. My issue is when the wrong employees are protected from reprimand, and when seniority advances one that doesn't deserve advancement, etc. I also see that unions are not an end-all failsafe way to protect ones job. I watched a contract ground handling company handle the NW flights in my city since I started, and know that the NW union didn't protect the jobs of the NW employees the contractor replaced.
I'm completely split. I just don't know how much value a union really has. At the same time, it seems DL's attitude is that the employee is the enemy. The employees don't provide a service, they take DLs money, in Dickie Andersons mind anyway.
I know for a fact that DL will exchange customer service for cost savings. I no longer work for an airline, as DL sold out every customer service agent of Comair Airlines and Mesaba Airlines. I now work for a contract ground handling company that starts at a lower payrate than McDonalds in my airport. It just baffles me that DL wants to put their airplanes worth Millions and Millions of dollars in the hands of minimum wage workers that don't know anything about aviation and could care less. Welcome to the NEW DELTA.
No flames from me! http://www.nonrev.net/forums/style_e...DIR#>/cool.gif
I appreciate the Union that I have, lately more so than I ever had. Sadly, I do think we need them more than ever these days and prefer to have the stability of someone watching my back.
I'm still waiting for my shirt.... http://www.nonrev.net/forums/style_e...#>/biggrin.gif
"Can I please have a raise Mr. Bossman? I think 50 cents an hour raise after working here five years would be kind of nice."
Or would you rather hear this?
"Ok, under our collective bargaining tenative agreement, we hashed out a whole package deal where we covered employee wages, healthcare, overtime, reporting pay, holiday pay and vacations, COLA, pension contributions, 401k's, vesting, seniority, pay scales, dental, vision, long term disability, short term disability, tooling allowance, uniform allowance, expense travel...........
It's a wonder union members fair better than their non-union counterparts historically and continue to do so. Go for the enchilada, not the nickel and dime raises bread crumbs you beg to your boss and hope he notices your total loyalty.
The Union is being gagged by management - lots of petty "If you don't ask, they can't tell" going on. If you have a Shop Steward about and wonder why you haven't heard anything from them, ASK.
To be honest, I was among those who though that the Union didn't give a damn anymore as they were barely 'present' until I asked one of my friends WTF was going on...
Vote which ever way your heart tells you, but by god, VOTE INFORMED.
Personally, the fact that the Union is actively being silenced and squished down scares the hell out of me, and makes me wonder what would happen if they were completely taken away....
I'll say it outright - Delta may NOT have needed a Union in the past, but those days are long gone and we need as many people watching out for each other as we can get - WE are strong together.
here is my 2cents...I say no...At Delta during the decline after 9-11 and bankruptcy, we were treated no worse then emloyees at other airlines that had representation, and it some cases we were treated better...yes, our management could just swoop in and cut our pay without negotiations - but take a look around, employees that had representation also got their pay and benefits cut - either thru negotions or forced negotiations by a Bankruptcy judge...what happened to the contract that can never be broken , it was broken!!!
when the NWA unions decide to finally call for a vote, which I think it totally sucks the Unions are delaying it waiting for the NMB to change the rules while they are calling for votes at other airlines...I will be voting no!! (if Ready Reserves are allowed to vote)
It is so much easier to vote IN a union then it is to vote one OUT...so now is the time to vote OUT the unions...this is the airline industry and there will always be a union rep somewhere with their noses all over the place wanting to represent us so if things dont go the way the majority likes, there is the opportuntiy to get back into the union...
I was raised with my parents dealing with their unions at manufacturing and chemical plants and came to realize at an early age that Unions have outlived their usefulness...when it comes right down to it - the security of your jobs is determined by the fiscal soundness of your company, not the union you are paying dues to every month...
Having worked in both, I am pro union.
Most, if not all States are "at-will" employment, meaning a company can terminate you at will and without reason.
I do not like that hanging over me at all...
I say no. I worked for 2 different airlines prior to DL. One without a union one with. I had 21 year without and everything worked out fine. We had a great agent counsel that worked along with management. The second was unionized and was promised union help, but everyon in that station got laid off. All avenues of transferes were squashed. Union said they worked till zero hour and it helped no one. How many remembered Eastern?
I remember Eastern, and I remember Frank Lorenzo too.Quote:
Originally Posted by lov2travel
Welcome aboard lov2Travel, the buffet is straight ahead. *wink*
I agree with DeltaFlyer.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaFlyer
It may seem strange at first to not have union rep to fight your battles (if you should need to fight one).
However, I have had to use Delta's famous or infamous "Open Door" policy twice since the WA/DL merger about issues that pertained only to me, not to the work group at large. It actually works. I have known quite a few others, who had more egregious isssues than mine, that have also used this venue to speak with senior management.
In the last 15 years I have had many friends leave Delta for greener pastures only to lament how much they miss working for Delta.
Even with the mergers, paycuts, furloughs, new management, old management, new rules, old rules, they would come back.
I can't explain why that is but I do know this.
Give it a try without a union - you might be surprised to find out that you will still have a voice
* Your own! *
You are wise to get as many opinions pro and con that you can, however, the ultimate decision is still yours to make. Good Luck!
Unions are screwin our economy. Well, thats what fox news tells me.
Yup. A TA is reached and when its all signed and done, up to 6k signing bonus for a two year contract plus retroactive pay going back over a year amounting to up to 12k gran total. FOR EACH TEAMSTER TECHNICIAN. More floating holidays, increase in pay, standardized union work rules and holidays, vacations, ect... Of course, how much you receive is based on factors such as time with company at various levels, of which details I will not discuss here, but you say what you want about a union. When the votes get ratified, I'll think about your responses here against uions as I drive all the way to the bank. Did your non-unionized work force in all your years of loyal service ever receive a ten grand check in their hand just for doing the same job that they did yesterday? We have a great culture at work, but we don't tolerate management treading on us. We will pay the union dues to see that this stays that way.
I am a former NW employee and my wife is a current NW/DL CSS. I have seen what THIS union has done for Northwest the last 20 years... NOTHING!!! I happy that you feel that the union has done great by you, but you are in the minority. It's like a person who has won 100 million in the lottery telling everyone else how great the lottery is and that they should spend everything they have buying tickets.Quote:
Originally Posted by 29palms
Please note that my comments are not directed at the pilots & fa's... I do not have knowledge of their contracts and thus can not give an opinion... At least an educated one :)
DO you DELTA people that post here that vote against having a union realize that being a union member is GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOUR PILOTS? And ALPA is the strongest union around. They take good care of their pilots. NWA employee? I take it you were never in a union were you? And if you were in the union at NWA, as a tech with AMFA you were definately in the brunt end of a bad contract/managment situation. Sorry about that one. I never said the union was great and that you always hit the lotto with a union contract. I did say, however, if you read between the lines, YOU ARE A FOOL IF YOU DON'T UNIONIZE IN THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY! (Being stuck on stupid about unions in general is your problem.) I bet you the pilots at Delta have a union don't they? Sure they do. You'll never see a pilot in the airline working without a contract. Your CEO's work on contracts too. Do you expect pilots and FA's to be the only work groups that rate having a union? You don't feel rampers, technicians, gate agents have the right to collective bargaining? FOOLISH THINKING. The smartest groups organize. The other work groups get scared off easily by their own fellow co-workers misinformed against being union.
Union folks have often told me, "one good thing about the union, they protect the incompetent", and "the union bosses get a good salary"!
Some of that is true. But they also protect us from incompetant management. It's not a perfect system. If a boss has it in for you, he can't just fire you like in alot of jobs. It takes away the personality differences, protects you from backstabbing, no matter what they say, they can't just chug you. Keeps other things in check. They have to have a good reason beyond a doubt to fire you. It's almost as good as protection I've seen for folks in the military and government. Work rules are more defined and standardized. Despite this, we've had good relations with our management. Believe me, my pitch is not in getting you to organize. It makes no difference to me what you guys do. I'm just saying that I'd rather be union than not in this industry. I embrace the union due to "Lesser of two evils" syndrome. Not because of a deep love for them. You guys do what you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pago Flyer
Frankly, I don't know what's going on at Delta. They sure must be doing alot of overtime trying to keep the unions away. What does Delta offer their employees? Power pizza break every Friday? Super turkey's on Thanksgiving?
PAGO FLYER
"the union bosses get a good salary"!
There may be one or two guys in the union that make a good salary. Buisness agent I think they call them. These guys put in alot of time in the union, and really don't make a whole lot of money when you compare it to executives in major companies that end up paying themselves a whole lot more money. A union buisness agent may draw in the neighborhood of maybe 125,000 per year. That's huge money to me, maybe even to you that's big money but in a world of airline industry, stock markets, huge corporate companies Exxon, Mobil, Aerospace companies, and on and on and on.... like look what these head honchos make. How much do your head figures make at Delta? The business agent gets alot of static from employees that push for answers and want miracles to happen, resolve continual grievances. I don't think I would want that job. Sure, they get nice perks, and stay in fancy hotels, wined and dined, but I'd rather spend that time with my wife, in our little cubby hotel doing our own thing and flying in free in our standby status to where I WANT TO GO. And somebody has to do that buisness agent job. Better someone that enjoys it more than me, and can do things for us in representation and collective bargaining.
It's not like you walk in the door and everyone is sitting in a chair looking at you when the boss man tells you that you must clear your desk, or tools, and that you gotta leave the premises. All based on a "Buisness decision", not to keep you. Or "You're just not a team player". When in reality, its all because they dislike your political views, your style, your religion or your race, or whatever. Though not perfect, the union keeps that in pretty good check.
You hit the nail on the head with that one!Quote:
Originally Posted by 29palms
I can speak from experience.
Five years at a company, with zero tardies, and only 3 sick days used.
Basically a great employee with a great positive attitude and let go for the reasons you mention above.
They dared me to fight it, telling me that they could fire me for any reason or no reason at all.
Fire me they did..............
They laughed about it and told me to try and prove it.
The laws say that they cannot do that but just try proving it.
Yea, sounds like a railroad job. But this happens in unions too. After all, they are people too. At least they try to accomodate a hairy situation and place you in a different area if you have a beef with people or supervisor. Nothing is perfect but I still go with the representation. You may not always like the outcome or agree with it, but sometimes its all you got. Like me, I like to tell some people to go @$%!! themselves and that tends to put me in shady ground but then I exit the situation before it gets more hairy.
And... it looks like DL's CSAs have also rejected the union. Can't say I blame them to be honest if it's anything like the one I had as a QSA before the merger (worthless!)
Delta's ticket and gate agents reject representation by machinists' union | StarTribune.com