unionization

I was reading something on the internet in regards to the whole NW DL merger. It appears that the Delta flight attendants are rejecting efforts to become unionized. This is confusing to me because I cannot understand why a workforce would not want to be unionized. Upon further research it turns out that there are plenty of people who also feel that they would prefer not to be unionized.

I work for one of the most employee friendly airlines out there, and I cannot imagine not being represented by a union. I would almost certainly be making about 1/3 less money and would have substantially less job security.

I'm curious to hear from some people who would rather remain non union, and their reasons for it..

I did a poll on this and no one replied http://www.nonrev.net/forums/style_e..._DIR#>/sad.gif

I am curious to know what the non union Delta folk's experiences have been, and if they think the union is needed - and why or why not?

Not trying to to instigate anything, just genuinely curious!

I am mixed about Unions.
I have been in the Union and if I had stayed in it, I would still be at my previous job, making over $20 an hour. I lost my Union membership when I took a promotion and was terminated "at will" a few months after.
They do offer protection from the whole "at will" employment, which means a company can fire you at anytime, for any reason.
They also protect workers who are pieces of garbage. I saw an employee sleeping in the break room once, while his flight was on the ground. The Supervisor asked him to wake up and go out to his flight. He told the Supervisor off and proceeded to sleep. They fired him on the spot. About a month or two later, the employee was back on the job with all the pay he had lost while terminated. That is not right.
The number one issue is pay. The company does not pay you out of the goodness in their hearts and a Union will surely get you better pay and benefits.
Overall, I like Unions. However, I believe they are a dying breed.

This is an issue that many people are hesitant to discuss because many people feel very strongly about it. That is another reason that union elections need to be secret ballot. Apparently there is legislation in motion that would take away secret ballot union elections. I absolutely disagree with such legislation. Imagine if at the polls they didn't give you an "I voted" sticker, they gave you an "I voted for McCain/Obama" sticker. You'd have alot of wrangling among the voters(more than current, anyway).

Anyway, my personal feeling is that unions started off with the proper intentions. I feel that unions did the majority of the work in the past to ensure better worker protection, work hour rules, etc. But I feel that unions may have outserved their purpose a little. If you want to make $25+ per hour, you can either go to college, or join a strong enough union. I've seen workers with not even a GED making more than college graduates. The best place to see this is the automotive industry. The unions have "stong armed" the companies almost to bankruptcy. It's very possible that my tax money will go to subsidize those wages with this next proposed bailout.

The employment at will is a tough one too. I recently lost half of my job. If I were in a union, that probably would not have happened; however, if I was still full-time, my company would be in a much less competitive position to keep it's contract locally. We are in a race to the bottom with a bottom dwelling contractor. I could hold on to full-time for a little longer, and then lose my job entirely, or bide my time and hopefully get it back in a few months.

I think that unions and management are to combative. I think it's a good thing for all the employees to get together and talk with the boss and discuss any issues. I think it's a bad thing to "strong arm" the company or the employees. I've seen union employees in a contract dispute sabotaging aircraft(draining batteries) such that the next departure will be 4+ hours delayed. I've seen union employees sabotaging lavs that in the downline station, a non-union employee gets the contents dumped on him/herself upon opening the valve. Just like Vulindlela, I've seen the wrong employees being protected by unions. I think in general, absolute general terms, it seems to discourage hard work. Whether you work hard and are a great employee, or are sleeping on the job, any advancement/pay raise/ etc. is laid out in a contract and you will not get ahead or behind by your actions.

I think my company benefits by having union competitors by having the flexibility they do not. I think the employees benefit because the company remains competitive with union pay/advancement scales. I know that DL employees make more money than NW employees, and DL just got a pay raise, and DL pays no union dues. I don't know the details as far as benefits, but I don't work for DL.

Jumper, you have a response.

But in actual practice in the workplace, these things need to be secret ballot.

There are some good points being made, primarily when it comes to the betterment of the company. I suppose unions sort of do "strong arm" the company when it comes to collective bargaining. They will typically ask for what they want, then throw a fit if they don't get it (strike, picket, etc.). And that kind of leaves the company in a bad spot because they have two choices, to give the union what it asks for, or face bad press. Kind of a lose lose.

I don't really see it as "strong arm" though as long as what's being asked for is fair and reasonable. What if the company is the one who is greedy? This is the case more often than not. The company would just as well give out one more round of 6 figure executive bonuses than to give their workers each another $0.50 an hour.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColoAvs19 @ Nov 18 2008, 10:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

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This is an issue that many people are hesitant to discuss because many people feel very strongly about it. That is another reason that union elections need to be secret ballot. Apparently there is legislation in motion that would take away secret ballot union elections. I absolutely disagree with such legislation.

Jumper, you have a response.

But in actual practice in the workplace, these things need to be secret ballot.[/b]

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Thanks ColoAvs - I appreciate your honesty.

To be PERFECTLY honest, I&#39;m incredibly torn. I know the Union has helped me in one very difficult and petty incident, and yet by the same token, the knowledge that for the next several years I&#39;m always going to be getting the dregs of everything because of my hire date. I won&#39;t even touch the pay raise issue, but you know it&#39;s a painful spot for all of us.

*sigh*

We&#39;ll see....
http://www.nonrev.net/forums/style_e...R#>/unsure.gif

A colleague at another workstation has a sign posted that reads, "(X Airline) employees value Unions" or something like that. I&#39;m always tempted to write in, "X Airline employees with seniority value Unions." Many employees are new hires. Unions do great at protecting the established. All benefits are determined by 2 factors, in my case- date of hire and letter of the alphabet your last name starts with. All the new hires (less than 2 years employed) get scraps in regard to vacation days, time off, shift bids, etc. Why would they be union? Union rules of seniority only prevent them from enjoying privileges.

Many will say, "When they have worked here 20 years they will appreciate it and think differently." Some comments here.
> That&#39;s presumptive. Why should they have that (poor) attitude in the future? Don&#39;t we all work the same job? In fact, many new hires are better trained and have more responsibility for less pay than those with seniority. Is that an inherent attitude we foster as unions, namely, that we should aim for a sense of entitledment at the expense of/standing on the shoulders of new hires below us? Have we forgotten what it was like when we were new hires? I&#39;d like to think that I see us all as a unified team. No one would recommend totally levelling the playing field, obviously. But how about spreading the wealth a little? The concept of "when the have worked here 20 years" is hardly encouraging in this industry of unknowns. Great respect is due to those who survived paycuts, mergers, bankruptcies, etc. They&#39;ve earned it. But telling a new hire to wait 20 years in order to get any privileges won&#39;t cause much excitement.

Interestingly, where I&#39;m at management has a plethora and wide variety of bonuses, rewards, perks, etc., many of them cash (!). The benefits are in most cases based on performance- goals met, attendance, evaluation scores, etc. It doesn&#39;t matter whether you&#39;ve worked 40 years or 4 months, personal effort and aptitude determines your rewards. Is there a way Unions can encourage all the new hires by including other factors than solely date of hire? If they did, they&#39;d get their vote.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (29Palms @ Dec 5 2008, 08:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

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EVERY LAV SERVICING individual I have ever come across opens a lav panel like one would open a door rigged with dynamite. Click, click, open the panel and get the hell out of dodge until you see what and how much comes out before you go hooking up the waste hose. Coloavs19. I think you been listening to some wild stories around your shop area.[/b]

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At Southwest we service our own lavs, and you&#39;re absolutely right. There&#39;s no way to really "rig" the lav service port. And you&#39;re also right about the method used when opening a lav. You&#39;ll usually stand off to the side and as far away as possible reaching over. There usually always is a small amount of "leakage" that comes out when you first open it.

I do have some lav service disaster stories though from what I&#39;ve witnessed over the years.

I&#39;m not a technician, I&#39;m a ramper. I routinely service lavs. You&#39;ve got it pretty much down pat Palms. You&#39;ve got the access panel, within is the blue juice fill port, the dump handle, and the waste valve(opening, whatever). You first open the access panel(of course), and then open the outer flap(and get the hell out of the way). You then hook up the hose, and then open the inner flap with the little handle next to it. You then pull the T handle and the SH!T FLIES.

Now, I&#39;ve had plenty of lavs where the T handle was inop, the actual valve stuck open, but the handle stowed and thus able to close the access panel. I&#39;ve also seen lavs with the inner flap not secured. If both the "sh!t valve" and the inner flap were inop, all the "contents" is right behind that outer flap. That must be opened before you can hook up a hose. You&#39;d jump out of the way, but it splashes(I know, it happened to me ONE TIME). That was an accident, I&#39;m confident in that. But one could flush a rag or something, leaving the "sh!t valve" cracked open, and leave open the inner flap. You then have a nice surprise.

Now, I&#39;ve not actually seen this happen, but I&#39;ve heard multiple accounts of multiple incidents involving a local outsourced ground handling company.

I&#39;ve also seen it where the previous station would insert the "donut", lock it in place and THEN pull the T handle so that the lav would dump behind the donut. Not a very good surpise for the next station.

As for the seniority thing, I think the only reward you can have for your years of loyal service IS your seniority. DL&#39;s pay topped out at 10 1/2 years, so that&#39;s not much of an argument. I spent 33+ years with the company and rarely got any respect from all the junior folks, even though we spent those years making it the airline it was and NOW it&#39;s their turn.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (29Palms @ Dec 11 2008, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

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" I spent 33+ years with the company and rarely got any respect from all the junior folks, even though we spent those years making it the airline it was and NOW it&#39;s their turn".

I can see why? This pyramid system, I lay down my pack while the juniors come in and carry MY LOAD. I see alot of that going on. And all this talk about LOYAL SERVICE. BUUUUUUULLLLLLLL.......The only loyalty I see in the airlines is loyalty to their big checks. They could care about loyalty to the airlines as they could care less about your expendibility.[/b]

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Nobody carried my load. If anything, I spent a good part of my time bailing out the junior folks. All I was asking of those folks was some respect for what we had done, that&#39;s all. Some of them think that the history of DL begins with the day they hired on.

And I seem to get from your reply that you think I was some management type when I talked about my loyalty to the company. Nope, I was just a grunt like the rest.....worked in cargo at ORD....ramp in SHV and ops and cargo at SLC.

Apology accepted.

Don&#39;t forget, that in my case, there was no unionization.......so, no seniority within craft. You had company seniority, which was used to bid for vacations and shifts, within your department.